The Alpha Renaissance

#21 Why You're Busy All Day and Get Nothing Done

• Taq Freeman • Episode 21

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What if your biggest productivity problem isn't how you manage your time — but how you manage your attention?

In this episode of the Alpha Renaissance, Taq sits down with Maura Nevel Thomas — ranked in the Top 10 Time Management Professionals in the World and one of the leading voices on attention management — for a conversation that will completely reframe how you think about focus, distraction, and what it means to actually live your life.

Maura breaks down why the phrase "time management" is outdated, why trillions of dollars are being spent to steal your attention, and what it's really costing you — in your work, your relationships, and your identity.

In this episode:

  • Why you can be busy all day and feel like you got nothing done
  • The attention economy explained — and why your phone is designed to own you
  • The iPhone moment in 2007 that changed productivity forever
  • What the world's leading ADHD psychiatrist says about modern distraction
  • The Starbucks story that made Maura rethink everything
  • The real difference between reactive and proactive time
  • Why notifications are the #1 enemy of deep work
  • What we lose when we fill every in-between moment with scrolling
  • How to raise kids in a world designed to commoditize their attention

Resources mentioned:

The Alpha Renaissance is a show about masculine excellence — simplified. New episodes weekly.

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#AttentionManagement #Productivity #Focus #Distraction #TimeManagement #DeepWork #DigitalWellness #MauraThomas #AlphaRenaissance #PersonalDevelopment

Disclaimer:
The views expressed by me and all guests are personal opinions and do not constitute Financial, Medical, or Legal advice.

SPEAKER_02

On the days that you say to yourself, I was busy all day and I got nothing done, and the day that you said to yourself, I it was such a great day, I got so much done, you you had 24 hours in both cases. Our attention is being stolen out from under us, and it is changing who we are. It's changing what we think about, it's changing how we feel, it's certainly changing how we act. These technology companies are studying neuroscience and cognitive psychology and behavioral analysis to see how to hook us in as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00

We live in an era where attention is constantly extracted, fragmented, and sold back to us. Yet most people believe their problem is time management. It isn't. Today's conversation is with Maura Thomas, a leading voice on productivity and attention. Her work challenges the modern obsession with hustle and reveals the harder truth. Most people aren't overwhelmed. They're undirected, they're leaking attention everywhere that doesn't matter. This episode isn't about doing more with your time, it's about doing what matters with your time. If mastery is still possible in modern life, it starts here. Welcome to the Alpha Renaissance with Mara Thomas. Mara Thomas. Thank you for, I'm great. Thank you for gracing us with your presence here, coming to enlighten us about productivity and where we should actually be placing our attention, which is a very important pillar of this show. We always ask the question: how does one maintain their agency in a world full of distractions?

SPEAKER_02

I love that question. I love that word. I think that word doesn't get used enough, our agency. But yeah, I I uh I get really excited to talk to people about how to manage their attention so that they can make more moments matter.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. How does one get started in that business? What brought you here?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it was a journey. Um, I've been in the productivity field for my whole career. Right out of college, I got a job at a company that sold planners, paper planners.

SPEAKER_00

Which is like the most the bare minimum analog version, the first step one would take in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

The path of productivity.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, training and uh planners and training to go along with them. And so I learned a ton about productivity, and I didn't, I didn't really appreciate how what a great education it was working there because I learned so much. I had some great mentors. And when I left after 10 years there, I decided this was one of the more unique skills that I had, helping people sort of um organize their lives and and have more days that end with, oh my gosh, that was such a good day. I got so much done. I think people spend too many days thinking I was busy all day and somehow I got nothing done.

SPEAKER_00

What were those types of people? Were they people that came to you that felt they were disorganized, or were they people that were that that were playing a prevention game, essentially? They were predicting, you know, maybe they were having something coming up, a baby being born, perhaps. What type of mindset is is even interested?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was not preventative. It was more um people who realized that they needed help. A lot of in the early days, it was a lot of mom and pop, um, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, entrepreneurs, you know, a guy that owned a small landscaping company or a real estate agent or insurance or um, yeah, just small business owners like that who realized that they really needed to get more done in less time. And also some people who felt like they were super organized, but those people who just love organization and who, you know, the container store is their favorite place to spend time.

SPEAKER_00

Also a prototype, but I feel like that's a small percentage of us. Most of us, our lives kind of fall into chaos. You know, we're like, oh my God, how did this happen? I need to get things under control. Is that how most of your clients come to you?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and now more than ever. I think it was not as bad before. I think I think the people who came to me in the early days were, because this was like early two, I think I started my business in 03.

SPEAKER_00

So 03. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it was people who um just really wanted to optimize themselves and um just be as efficient as possible. But now it's just getting so much worse. I think now people are just drowning and working all the time and just looking for what changed? Oh, technique. Do you think just I mean the yeah, the prevalence of the internet and internet connected smartphones? I think the iPhone really changed everything in 07 when it came out, like a lot.

SPEAKER_00

That was like the ground zero for productivity.

SPEAKER_02

I think so. Because before that, we had internet connected smartphones, but they were clunky and slow, and you had to wait, like you'd get gray hair waiting for the internet to come up, you know. So it wasn't, it wasn't anything like what it is now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I feel like it's definitely changed, right? Like it, you know, before you at least had some time to yourself. Maybe you were commuting right to your job. Maybe you were on the, you know, on a train, on a bus, you're driving, you can listen to the radio, you can listen to a podcast. But if you even have people working from home, that's less time even for that. And it's more time for work.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and in some cases, I don't even think it is people making intentional choices about working. I think it's just that all day when we are working, we are constantly checking all of the incoming stuff, right? You're constantly cycling through email, chat, voicemail, text, social media, email, chat, voicemail, text, social media, right? Over and over and over again. And you're checking it all day long. In between meetings, you know, you go to a meeting, you come back, first thing you do is check your email, check your messages. And so we have become so habituated to this constant checking that when you get home, you can't just leave that habit at the office. And so you just find yourself still checking. You're sitting at the dinner table and you're checking, and you're sitting on the couch watching TV and you're still checking. And before you go to bed, you're still checking. Not because you actually said to yourself, I'm gonna get some work done, just because you're scrolling on your phone before you even realize it. And I think that's the real danger of the constant distraction that we are faced with today, is that it is habituating us to distraction. And so once behaviors become habit, then they start to become more comfortable and more normal. And so then when we don't engage with them, it feels uncomfortable and not normal. And like we're we should be doing something else, or we're not being productive, or we just have this pull to be constantly checking. And so we are we're really outsourcing our decisions to our devices.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. I I I remember, I remember 2007. I remember when you could be having a conversation with someone in the early 201s, and it was kind of rude for someone to get on their phone, like kinda. And you would people would stop talking. Yeah, right. You would have we would be talking, and if I look down on my phone, you would just stop talking and wait for me to finish what I'm doing, and then we would continue the conversation. Yeah, that doesn't really happen anymore. We just talk over each other. We we don't, it's not rude. We all it's it's like, oh, oh, you're you're getting your little high. Okay, I get it. I get it. Maybe I'll get my high too. And we just three minutes later, we're back in the conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Except I think it is rude. I I think it still is rude. I think we tolerate it more than we used to, but I do think that it's still rude. And now I think when you stop talking, people are like, no, no, no, I'm listening. And it's like, no, you're not.

SPEAKER_00

What do you think that says about the interaction though that we're having that we like subconsciously?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. I think it's absolutely degrading our conversations with our ability to connect with other people, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I definitely feel that there's this tension with trying to get through your day and constantly stand abreast with what's going on. Me right now, personally, like the Epstein files. I have wasted so much time in the last few days since they drop to the point where I'm doing work and I'm like, okay, what else, what else have we found in these three million documents? But it's not just that, right? It's always something, right? It could be, well, you know, it could be sports, you know, life, or watching, you know, live tweets for you know, your favorite game, show anything. But I felt this significantly in my life, especially in the last few years. And the more I try to do, the more distracted I feel like I am.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and the problem is that is that that is the goal for attention merchants, right? Companies that sell attention. They want us to not realize it, not realize how how integrated into the fabric of our lives it is. Because if we don't notice, then we just keep doing it more and more. But if you think about it, there there's really no benefit to your life to knowing every new piece of whatever as soon as it comes out, the Epstein files or the score of the game or whatever. It's like you you're your life won't change, and you could find out later, right? You could sit down on a Saturday morning drinking your coffee and get caught up in 30 minutes about and especially with the 24-hour news cycle, you hear the same thing over and over. Breaking over and over. Yeah, and they call it breaking, but it's breaking for like 24 hours. Um so it's yeah, it's it's just it's it's manipulation. Really.

SPEAKER_00

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

And so the fact that we're so distracted, really it's understandable why we're so distracted and why we're having a hard time resisting that, because there is trillions of dollars being spent to make us feel that way.

SPEAKER_00

Well, like you said, you consider it rude. I I believe, I think most people do. But considering that behavior rude is completely different from considering it a problem. And then that problem being viewed from one's internal lens versus, you know, and that person may not think it's that bad, but the external lens, it may look like a psychotic break. So how so how does one what how does one self-monitor for this destructive behavior that again, because it's that dopamine addictive sense where you're like, ah, I get my fix.

SPEAKER_02

Every time I found out a new random fact about the Epstein files, I was just like, oh, yes, a new file, like a little reward, like I knew they were there. And that's being sort of conditioned into you on purpose, right? That um there there are so many ways that our technology has sort of infused our lives on purpose, because now these technology companies are are studying neuroscience and cognitive psychology and behavioral analysis to see how to how to hook us in as much as possible. So it's really, really hard to resist. And to your question of how do we evaluate if it's a problem, when I ask audiences when I'm doing speeches, and I ask audiences, you know, on a scale of one to ten, where one is not that bad, and ten is I'm totally addicted to my technology. Where would you, you know, think to yourself where you would put your number? And and then when we talk about it later, most people are like, ah, you know, two, three, maybe a four, sometimes a five, right? And then I say, okay, now think about what the person in your life who you are closest to would rate you. And everybody's like, oh, geez, all right, nine. So very important.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. And it's a great practice.

SPEAKER_02

And in terms of, I mean, really, that's the one that matters, right? Yeah. Because what you think doesn't really matter. It's what the people around you who you love, how they feel about it, that really matters, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00

So, how would you describe what you do to to interact with that though those people that have those issues? What do you do specifically for?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, in terms of services, I I talk um my keynote speeches and my corporate trainings and things are all about um, all of my services are all about how to better manage your attention. And one of the most, I guess, simple things, but really influential things is the shift in how you think about it. Because we've been framing our ability to be productive in terms of time management for decades. If I could only manage my time better, I would be more productive. But I think it's time to eliminate that phrase because on the days that you say to yourself, I was busy all day and I got nothing done, and the day that you said to yourself, I it was such a great day, I got so much done, you you had 24 hours in both cases. So we have all the time we need to have productive days. The challenge is what we are doing with our attention during that time. And if we're not controlling our attention, if we're not managing our attention, if we're not intentionally directing our attention during those hours, then we have different experiences than what we expect. So, for example, if you're sitting on the couch with someone watching TV, have you ever had the circumstance where one of you laughed and the other one was scrolling their device. So they missed what happened. Oh, what was what happened? What we rewind, rewind, what happened? Right. So you're not really having the same experience because shared experience requires shared presence. And if one of you is on your device, or if both of you are on your device, you're both sitting on the couch, the TV's on, but you're both on your device, then you're not really having the same experience. So the so whether or not you're controlling your attention is really what makes the difference, is really what determines the experience you're having. And so instead of time management, if you start to think about attention management, and the more you sort of infuse your life with that phrase, the more you start to realize when you are distracted. And you start to say, Okay, I should put the phone away, okay, I should, I should silence the ring or I should, I should put it face down, I should put it in the other room, oh, I shouldn't let that person interrupt me. And you start to see it, and then you start to that's when your behavior starts to change. You can't change a habit that you don't realize that you have. And so attention management raises the awareness, that phrase attention management raises the awareness so that you can start to make changes.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's upended everything that we know, right? Because all of my life I've only heard the word time management.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Test taking, what have you, time management, time management, time management. You're saying you acknowledge time, but it's not always just time.

SPEAKER_02

It's not just time. If you're not also controlling your attention, then you won't have the experience that you intended. Right? If you and I planned to go to lunch to get to know each other better, but during that, it's on our calendars, we managed our time, we both showed up at the restaurant, but during that time, one of us was distracted by our phone, or both of us were distracted by our phone most of that time. We wouldn't really have the experience that we intended because we intended to get to know each other and make a connection, and maybe we did a little of that, but it was it was um sort of infected by this distraction. And so it's a different experience than the one that we planned on. So we managed our time and we got to the restaurant and we spent the time there, but we had a different experience because we didn't manage our attention.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting because the content is very hot right now. I don't know if you've seen this, but ADHD. Yeah, okay. I I'm gonna be nice. There seems to be a a lot of self-diagnoses, or I will say social diagnoses of ADHD. Okay. And it's rapid. And I would imagine if you were to tell someone that, hey, not time management, it's your attention, their immediate response would probably go something like, Well, I have attention deficit disorder.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Maybe so ADD or ADHD is a medical diagnosis, and I'm not I'm not a clinician. We're not getting into the wheeze of that, no. So but but I will tell you that um the research I've done, and I've talked to uh I've talked to a fair number of psychologists and psychiatrists, and there's one, in fact, who is um probably the most experienced in ADD. His name is Edward Hallowell. He wrote a book, which was really one of the first books on the topic. It's called Driven to Distraction. Um, he co-wrote it, I think back in the, I don't know, 80s, 90s, maybe. And um he says that it is almost impossible to tell if someone has a clinical case of ADD or just a bad case of modern life. And it's his job to diagnose it. He's a psychiatrist. It's his job to diagnose it. And so what he's finding is that when his when his patients are removed from their normal day-to-day, like because they retired or they went on sabbatical or they had a health issue that took them out of work for a long time, their ADD symptoms lessen also.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So you can't know that. I you know, I practice anesthesia. I'm an anesthetist, and we, you know, I've done many of the uh electroshock therapy for patients. Right, you just anesthetized them and then the psychiatrists come and they shock them, typically for major depression.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_00

And I've had many conversations as well with them. And many psychiatrists that I know will tell you that it's typically a framing issue for most people. It's not always a biological issue, right? Again, not getting into the weeds of psychiatry, but there is some application to focusing on that attention and being open to amending your attention to change your ability to be more productive.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's habit to addiction is a continuum. And so, where exactly you draw the line between habit and addiction, I'm not qualified to say, but I can comfortably say that most of us have a habit of distraction. Right? The more distracted we are, and think about it, our phones, something is buzzing or flashing or beeping or popping up at us virtually every minute of every day. So we become used to it. And then if we become used to it and then it doesn't happen, then we look for it. And so we it becomes a really strong habit. And just like any habit, it becomes hard to change because it starts to feel comfortable and it starts to feel normal. And so then I used to tell people, ask yourself, is this what I want to be doing? Is this really what I want to be doing right now? And that question doesn't even work anymore because it's so comfortable and it feels so normal that when you ask yourself that question, the answer is always yes. And so then you have to ask different questions of, you know, when you find yourself going down that rabbit hole of more Epstein files or whatever it is, what else could I be doing right now? And would that serve me better? How is this making me feel? What am I getting out of this? Um, am I making the most of this moment right now? Or any kinds of questions like that are more helpful than is this really what I want to be doing? Because your brain is like, yeah, it is. It is what I want to be doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

If I ask my brain, it's gonna be like, keep doing it.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, yeah, it's almost since the pandemic, there's this TikTok defication of even all of the social media, right? And I don't know if you've seen this, but I know for me specifically, I feel way more engaged into Instagram and YouTube, those two, which I wasn't the same relationship, and it only happened after TikTok. TikTok kind of made short form content explode. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, YouTube created the reels, and well, YouTube shorts, and then Instagram created the reels, and these things are just just coming up on your phone nonstop, and they're good. And they're and it's it's just way more engaging, it's a way more entertaining and engaging experience every time you jump on the apps.

SPEAKER_02

And that's why I don't, I mean, I don't recommend that everybody get off every app, but certainly turning off the notifications of the apps, um, being intentional in your usage. So for me, not being on them is what works for me.

SPEAKER_00

You don't go, you don't have a social media.

SPEAKER_02

I I lurk a little bit on LinkedIn and I have a presence there, but that's it.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I because I could not find you.

SPEAKER_02

Not on socials. No, not on socials. Uh you'll find me on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00

On LinkedIn, I saw your wonderful, you do your wonderful um TED Talk.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It was amazing.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00

Everyone should check that out.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Uh yeah, that TED Talk is really old now.

SPEAKER_00

So it was still valuable information that can be used and it's still applicable today because attention hasn't changed, still the same.

SPEAKER_02

It is. Yeah, that was um early in my sort of exploration of attention management. It was just a few years in because around 2009 is when I started um two years after the iPhone came out.

SPEAKER_00

Was it the iPhone that started this for you for you to start kind of looking deeper into what was going to happen? Did you put were you predicting? Were you seeing something?

SPEAKER_02

It was my own use of the iPhone.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02

So there was a day, it there was a day that made me change my whole perspective. And it was in 2009. And I had pulled up to my local Starbucks. I was getting coffee for a meeting that I was attending, and the line was out the door. And so, like everyone else in line, I pull out my phone. I'm like, no problem, I'll just wait until it's my turn. And whatever it was, just I just got so engrossed in my phone. And you've seen those people out in the world, they're just so into their phones and they're bumping into people and they're in the way, and they're they have no awareness of the people around them. They're being super rude. That was me that day. And I was um when I walked up to to get my coffee, I totally spaced. I was like, oh my gosh, my Starbucks order, what is it? I don't even know. The line's still at the door, the people are all waiting on me. So I finally get the order out. I pay. Now I have to wait for my coffee. So now I go stand over here and I'm still back in my phone, totally engrossed. I hear my name called. I barely even look up. I grab the tray. I walk through the store one-handed, right? One hand in the tray, the other hand on my phone, my head's down. I don't know if I was bumping into people. I who knows what I was doing. I push through the door. I know I didn't look to see if anybody was coming through behind me. It might have slammed in someone's face for all I know. I wander across the parking lot like this. I get into my car and I put down the tray and I realize it's not my tray. It's not my coffee. And now the line is still out the door. And now this poor overworked staff, I left the store with it. So they can't give it to whoever it was. Now they have to dump it and remake it. And now my tray's gone, so they have to remake my whole tray. So I added to everybody's work. I was super rude. I was, it was a mile from my house. There's probably many people I knew in that store that day. And I just, it's really important to me to live according to my values, right? To be nice and kind and polite and to brighten people's day instead of being the jerk customer that they had to deal with. But I was the jerk customer that they had to deal with that day. And I will never forget that. And reflecting on that day is really what made me realize that our attention is being stolen out from under us. And it is changing who we are. It's changing what we think about, it's changing how we feel, it's certainly changing how we act. And like you said, things that used to be rude, people sort of tolerate now. But but you know when somebody's not paying attention to you, and it doesn't feel good. Even if you don't call them out, even if you don't feel upset about it in the moment, you still know.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you feel like you got slided. Yeah. If somebody puts their phone out right when you're talking, I mean, it feels like it, it feels like a disc. And oftentimes it tells you that what you're saying either is not important to them, or maybe you didn't deliver it strong enough. But either way, neither one feels good, whether it's the onus is on them or yourself. It's not a great feeling to be snubbed.

SPEAKER_02

No. And now it doesn't even have to be your phone. How many times do people glance at their watch when you're talking to them?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then it's like, and you know it's because they're getting notifications. It's not necessarily because they're looking at the time, because time is almost the last thing we check on our watches now, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you know why, but it still feels like, do you have somewhere else to be? Am I boring you? Like, fine, go do what you gotta do because clearly you're not listening to me. And so it's not building bridges in our relationships, it's chipping away at our relationships. And there are trillions of dollars being spent on stealing our attention because our attention is the most valuable commodity on the planet today. By a lot, it's not even close, it's worth trillions of dollars. Attention has been um divided into units and monetized, and that is the economy that we're in.

SPEAKER_00

This kind of happened before even anyone even knew what data was. Like we signed uh the terms of services, privacy agreements. None of us knew that our data was being collected.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I mean, data collection is another whole thing. So, yes, selling it, yes, stealing it and or taking it.

SPEAKER_00

Stealing it from our attention, using our attention as a commodity and taking that. That was the price we paid for a transaction we did not sign up for. And at the end of the day, we lost our attention span.

SPEAKER_02

We did. And and in some cases, we do make choices, but the choices are packaged to us like it's for our benefit. Oh, you'll get more convenience and this app will be more useful, and you'll get things that you really, the only things that you really want if you allow us to monitor your preferences. And so then it's like, at first it's like, all right, that seems cool. And then you're like, wait a minute. But they knew they knew the whole time.

SPEAKER_00

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

The whole time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So you were very aware, you were conscientious at the time that something was not right. And this is only a couple of years in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I it took me a little while to catch on, but yes, I've yes, it I I noticed it because I was not the person I wanted to be that day. And I will probably feel bad about that day for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure you still don't feel completely immune, but you also decide to make a clear decision and draw the line on taking on some agency with your attention span.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a struggle every day. I struggle as much as everyone else does because they're only getting better and better at stealing our attention from us. And so it it continues to be hard, but I do things that that I'm trying to make the behaviors I want to engage in easier because that's a foundational principle of habit change, right? Make the things you want to do easy, make the things you want to avoid hard. So I'm just not on social media and that helps. My phone is on silent almost all the time. I have it. Uh, I have my husband on emergency bypass, so he gets through, but everyone else, but my phone doesn't make any noise ever.

SPEAKER_01

Really?

SPEAKER_02

Ever. Unless I'm waiting for a phone call, right? If somebody says the doctor's office is supposed to call or something, I'll turn it on. But otherwise, it's always silent. I have all of my notifications turned off on all my devices. So, um, and I'm I work really hard. I I sometimes fail. I often fail, but I work really hard at trying to do only one thing at a time. So if I'm working, like a lot of people have their two monitors, yeah, so that they can have their work on one monitor and their communication on the other, email, chat, social media, whatever is on that monitor. And so we're trying to get our work done, but there's a new message, and there's a new message, and there's a new message, and there's a new message, and they come in relentlessly all day long. And so that causes us to switch what we're doing all day long, which means everything we do is taking longer and the quality is lower because that task switching is costing us. So I make a concerted effort to try to single task as often as possible. So I close my email if I'm doing something.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. I mean, it's because I'm thinking about the most like basic journalistic question ever, which is how does that feel? Because the I even you explaining it to me, because I know I'm sick now. Uh I feel the sickness. But you explaining that, the first thing I thought about when you say you turn all of your notifications off is it's almost as if you don't even know your phone is there, which makes me feel like I lost my phone. That feeling.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I wish, I wish it made me feel more often like it wasn't there. Um, but it still feels like a presence, but I can go for extended periods of time before I get the itch. Right. I've the more distracted we are, the more distracted we get. And so we're distracted every minute, and so every minute we seek out a distraction, we expect a distraction. And so, but the reverse is also true. The less distracted you are, the less distracted you get. And so I'm trying to make myself less distracted so that I'm building my attention span back up so it's 20 or 30 or 45 minutes that I can really get into something and get that feeling of satisfaction that I've made progress and I did that thing and check, right? But I but then it's like, and now I gotta check my messages. Now it's been a while. Now I gotta check. Yes, yes. But the time between that is getting a little longer and a little longer.

SPEAKER_00

Very good. I one fatal mistake I made recently was, you know, all of my products are Apple, right? So, you know, when I work, I have an iPad that's open, I have my MacBook and I have my phone. And every once in a while, all three, like my phone will be on the stand, all three will be open, and I used to not connect my messages and my WhatsApp and those notifications. But now, because of the nature of this work, right? You know, I'm copying and pasting from here, I'm sharing files, sharing photos. It's just easier. And that's what I told myself. But I think I do about five minutes of focus work at a time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And then the problem with that is that we don't, it's not satisfying.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_02

So then we don't enjoy our work as much. No, it's true. You don't get that feeling of like, oh, I did that. I that's done. That feels great. I can't wait for somebody else to see it. You know, if you're doing, especially some sort of creative work, right? If I write an article, if I really get into that article and I spend 30 or 45 or an hour on it, when I'm done with it, I can't wait to send it to my editor. Don't you think it's good? Look at this thing I just wrote. Because it feels really productive and really satisfying. And so when we're constantly distracted, it really robs the joy from our days.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, even using, so and I don't know if this is a fallacy or not, you're the expert, but even using okay, so technology is our great nemesis of distraction. And guess what? We have to help us.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Apps, technological apps, yeah. More technology, by the way, yeah, to help us. Do they work? What are your thoughts on those?

SPEAKER_02

For sure. In the in one of my books, I call this the productivity paradox because we need the apps. The apps do make us more productive until the point where we allow them to make us less productive, right? So I my business would probably come to a standstill without email. If I stop checking my email, then my whole business would change and probably be a lot more difficult. But also, if I monitor every single message as it arrives, then I never get anything else done. So the idea is that we just have to remember that at least in theory, our technology, we have our technology for our convenience. But we just outsource our those that intention and we let our devices decide when we do something. What should I do next? Oh, look, there's an email, I'll just do that. And now there's a chat, so I'll just check that, and now I'll just check check that text. And I hear so many people who find themselves, it's a constant cycle all day long because they have so many communication channels. I'm gonna check my email, I'm gonna check my social media, check my text, check my voicemail, check the chat, and now it's been about an hour, so I gotta start over again.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. You're explaining my life. Uh and yeah, I mean, even like you look at things that are supposed to optimize our productivity, like say like a chat GPT, right? And you know, I I look at it as a summarization of the internet. You can ask the internet a summary question, right? But I think that it also you can add so many summaries that it takes away from your time to actually write, write that article to actually create. Like in my practice, I try to write and create something on a semi-daily basis, right? Every other day is probably about write. But I find myself looking for ideas sometimes with Chat GPT. I brainstorm session with Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

So if I have, say if I have 30 minutes or 45 minutes to write, I end up on a Chat GPT rabbit hole where I'm it next thing I know, I have five minutes to write a little article, even if it's just a few paragraphs, maybe I want to write some content. Who knows? But I spend, I find myself sometimes spending so much time in the chat bot where it's there to optimize productivity, but it's also somehow become a distraction because it's kind of allure. It's talking to me in a way that what else do you want to do? I can do this, I can do that. I'm like, oh well, that sounds like a good, yeah. Summarize, make a chart, compare that. Like, oh, give me a give me a worksheet. Yeah, absolutely. I'll do this every day. And then 45 minutes later, what did you get done? I thought a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I love the potential of Chat GPT for that. On the other hand, I I think the way to address that problem is to be really intentional. And this is true for any technology, whether it's the social media platform you're going on or the news site or the research that you're doing, or Chat GPT, or whatever it is, be intentional and decide I need this. And as soon as I get this, then I'm off. Then I'm done. And I'm gonna go do my plan, right? I'm gonna spend 10 minutes going back and forth with ChatGPT so that I can hone in on the my perspective for this article that I'm gonna write. But then once I have that angle locked in, I'm done. And now I'm gonna go write. So the more intentional we can be with our technology, the more control we have over it.

SPEAKER_00

Is there a way that we can approach our our day-to-day, right? In terms of like some of my friends, they will the day before, they write, well, they plan their days a week ahead, they plan their weeks, weeks out, right? So what they need to do for that week, and each day they get up and they say, okay, I'm gonna do this, this, these three things today. How does that approach align with with with what you know and your expertise on moving forward?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm more of a fan of a more holistic approach. So so part of what I teach is a whole system about how you manage your life. And and sure, you have to um you have to have plans. The way that I do it, it's sort of ongoing so that you don't have to keep planning. It's just part of what you do. But you got your three things that you need to do for your day. And if that strategy is working for you, then that's great. Where I would come in and diagnose the problem is when people say to me, I never get to those three things. And it's not because you aren't working, you are working, but we spend so much of our time being reactive. And by that I mean answering emails, answering chats, answering text messages, answering voicemails, going to meetings, answering questions that people ask us. So we react and we react and we react. But the only time we're doing those three things that are on our list are when we're proactive. And when we're proactive, that's when we're saying enough of this incoming stuff, I'm gonna decide now what I'm gonna do. And it's gonna be these this plan that I had for the day. I'm gonna pick one of these things and I'm gonna do it. And the only and then the only way you're gonna get that done is if you close all of your communication channels and just do that thing. So if it's working for you or for the people that you're talking about, great.

SPEAKER_00

Those people are me. You're right.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

If it's working, then I would say no big deal. But if you find that you've that you are doing too many, that you're not getting done. Yeah. Or you're not spending your days the way you would really like, you aren't really present with your family, for example. You aren't um, you know, stroking your creativity, you aren't taking time to engage in hobbies, or you aren't working out as much as you would like, or getting as much sleep as you would like, or eating as healthy as you would like, or any of those things. If they're if you aren't live, if your days aren't going the way that you would ideally like them to go, then there's room to make some changes.

SPEAKER_00

So what do we, what do you recommend starting?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. First thing is to close the is to turn off the notifications because you don't really need them. We think we've been conditioned to believe that we need to know that somebody just liked our LinkedIn post, but in reality, it doesn't affect your day to know right now that somebody liked your LinkedIn post.

SPEAKER_00

I I want to interact with my my subscriber.

SPEAKER_02

Do that, do that on your time, do that when you decide it's time. So if you are intentional about where your attention goes, and so you decide that I'm gonna do this thing now, just do that thing and close everything else, and then so what happens is we try to do this thing that we want to do while we're also checking our messages and going back and forth. But if you do if you if you do the things that you want to do and then check your messages in between the your tasks and your activities that you decide on, in between instead of during, then everything you do will get done faster and better. So if you spend, say, if you divide your time when you have control over it, and say you spend 30 minutes doing something that you want to do, being proactive. You spend 20 minutes being reactive. Check my email, check my chat, check my social media, check all that. And then you spend 10 minutes taking a break, go for a walk, get a cup of coffee, you know, use the restroom, take care of yourself, stretch your body, do whatever. And then that cycle starts again. Now, obviously. Every day can't go exactly like that. And sometimes you have to spend more time on your communication because maybe you're getting a lot and it starts to back up or whatever. And that's fine. But if you think about cycling through your days, just be, just do the thing that you're trying to do when you're being proactive. And then just check your messages when you're doing that. So try to do one thing at a time. And the research shows that everything gets done faster and better.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think the notifications are, I'm sure you must find that to be like the number one thing people are beholden by. Yes. Is that what's trapping people?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and in so many ways, because it's not just that the notifications call us away from what we're doing, but then we get used to the notifications. And so they continue to distract us. And so again, the more distracted we are, the more distracted we get. So the more notifications you get, the more distracted you are. So the more distracted you get. And so then you don't even have the patience or the ability. You see those things on your list. You know it's going to take you half an hour. And you're like, that's too hard. That's going to take too long. I don't feel like doing that. And so then you avoid all of that stuff because it feels like you don't, in the moment, it feels like you don't really want to do it. But in reality, when you do it, that's what's going to make you say, oh my gosh, that was such a good day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I really was productive. I really moved the needle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's like when you uh have those really delicious uh crumble cookies.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you're like, uh, maybe today I should like right now, I shouldn't eat it. And you you don't eat it, but you you feel better. But in the moment, everything is saying, go for it, go for it, go for it. But you know, you hopefully make it to the gym or something. You're like, ah, I actually won a battle today. Yeah. And you feel better about that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yes. We have to remember that oftentimes our our feeling, our brain, our desire in that moment is lying to us. Yeah. The things that we think that we want to do are really not the things that are going to serve our goals the best.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think what do you think the brain is saying when you're in that moment and you're you you want to respond? Because I that desire to respond to those notifications, to that email, you know, to to respond to your followers, you know, and let them know that they're part of a community. All these things, these stories. What what what do you think the story is that we're telling ourselves?

SPEAKER_02

Well, the first thing is that you that ignoring the notifications is the hard way to do it, right? Leaving the notifications on, but trying to ignore them just sets you up for failure. So if you turn off the notifications, then it makes it easy for easier for you because they're not pinging you every minute. And then you can just check in on those channels when you decide. And you can spend the time that you feel like you need to spend, but it's intentional and you decided instead of just being blown by the wind of distraction.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's not like you're going to forget to check it even.

SPEAKER_02

No, you're not going to check forget to check your, you're not going to forget to check any of your channels, to be honest. I mean, you're just not. Even even if if focus is your superpower and you could focus, most people can't, but even if you could just get into the zone and do your work for four hours, five hours at a time, most people can't. But even if you could, when you you're done, you're probably your first thought is gonna be, oh, I should probably check my messages.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just I I'm thinking about it and I am I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna try it. But the idea of trying it is actually, I feel resistance in my brain because I feel as though I need to, I need to be available. I need to know what's going on. I mean, for God's sake, if there's another Epstein drop, okay, of files, I need to know, right?

SPEAKER_02

But you will know, but you will know. You just don't need to know right. It's breaking news. I need to know. We have all these stories that we tell ourselves, and most of those stories are just not true. And I don't want to call them excuses because these stories are fed to us in a way that makes them feel so real and so true. Yes. But it's because it's it's because we're being manipulated in many ways. If you know about the Epstein files dropping at one o'clock or at six o'clock, your life is not gonna change. Right? It's not gonna change. It's not gonna change. Unless I was in the no just and and even if I mean your life might change because you'll do more of what you want to do instead of going down the rabbit trail of you know, 24-7 cable news.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00

So you you made that critical decision to change, right? Uh that in 2009, two years after the iPhone is released, right? If you didn't make that decision, how do you think your life will look now? What type of person do you think you would be?

SPEAKER_02

I am seeing this pervasiveness of what I'm thinking of as scroll culture, scroll zombies, right? When you when I'm out, I travel a lot, I'm riding on the bus to get the rental car from the terminal. And you just look around and everyone's on their phone. It's like any minute, any any pause in activity, everyone is just so conditioned to reach for their phone. I mean, if you sneeze, somebody's gonna take out their phone, right? Like, sneeze, sneeze. I'll just I'll be with you when you're done, right? I'm just gonna look at this for I mean, stop light, stop sign, riding an elevator, any pause of activity. We have become so conditioned to just whip out our devices. And that has become so detrimental because it's in, I call them the in-between moments. Those those pauses of activity are when we used to um reflect and have and let our mind wander. And that's where insights come from, that's where creativity lives, that's where we come up with solutions to problems and we make connections and we reflect. We're spending so much time consuming and no time reflecting on what we consume that it makes it really hard for us to be informed. And so then when we're trying to have a conversation with someone about something, we're just repeating what we heard or what we read, what we consumed. And then as soon as somebody says, Well, why do you feel that way? It stops you cold because you haven't even stopped to think about why you feel that way. You just seems like, you know, your side, your outlet that you read, they they feel this way. So that's the perspective that you've adopted, but maybe you don't feel that way. And so we've lost that reflection time, which is a huge component of emotional intelligence. And so I feel like I would be much less reflective, much more passive, and just my my life would be, I would have different experiences because they wouldn't be, and of course, I'm not, I'm not, I don't, I'm not that I don't I'm not as good as this at this as I would like to be. I'm you know as as susceptible as anyone else.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I do feel like I I people still tell me I really appreciate how present you are when we're together. And so it's those kinds of things that I know that experience that we just had was so much richer and so much more meaningful because we were both present for it than if we were only kind of present for it while we were also scanning for other inputs.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you said it was just it really hit me because there's so many aspects of that that I it it resonates with me, particularly anytime there's a silence, like you said, a non-activity. We reach for the phone. We reach for the phone, no matter what. Grocery store, getting gas. It's just a knee-jerk reaction. Actually, even like when in in other situations when you would have just observed, look around, have some vigilance to what's going on, reach for the phone and look at the screen as a as a comfort mechanism.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, and even those, we're losing even those little moments of connection, not only with people that we know, but those those little moments of humanity. You know, those moments that um you sort of make a connection with someone else, like you're at the gas station and somebody's doing something crazy. Yeah. And you see the other person, and the two of you look at each other like, what's going on there? And you just have this connection with this stranger that you're just sharing this moment and you're sharing this feeling, and you're making connections with other humans, but if everybody's got their head and their device, those moments don't happen anymore. And so we're becoming more isolated, more depressed, more socially inept. We're losing the ability to relate to other humans because we don't have as much opportunity as much opportunity as we used to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my dad, he's like in his 70s and he lives in Chicago still. And he it was a very strange, it was an odd statement, but it was actually very profound. He told me that, you know, he was uh walking around, you know, somewhere in Chicago, and he saw this one, one of the old guys from the old neighborhood, right? This old uh, he was like, Oh, he's this guy's from little Italy. He's like, when I saw him, I recognized he was from my generation. And he said, you know, he walked up to him, they had a conversation. He said, you know, we don't do this anymore, you know, people don't talk anymore. He said, It was nice to talk to someone from my generation just to have a conversation. He was like, Because that's just that's just not practiced anymore. And I thought that I was like, well, sounds like you maybe were a bit annoying, probably, you know, coming bothering this man. But really, I get it, I identify. Like that generation doesn't even identify what's going on because they had conversations with each other. It's very normal for strangers to walk to each other and talk to each other and not be afraid of each other, not you know, have anxiety when they're interacting with another human being, reach for their phone to get out of it. They just kind of face each other and dealt with each other, which is very interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's why that question of is this what I want to be doing right now? We're gonna say yes, because I mean, people tell me all the time, oh, I'm tired. I, you know, I'm I'm on the train commuting home, I'm tired, I had a long day. I don't want to talk to somebody else. Really? I mean, in a perfect world, would you always want to isolate yourself like that? It's just so easy to distract ourselves and to withdraw from other people instead of engaging with other people. But the more we do that, the more isolated we become.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm sure it has effects on dating as well, right? Because everybody, I'm happily married. Uh, I think that uh it would be a disaster for me to be dating. It's hard to do it's difficult because they don't seem to interact with each other. Yeah, they they communicate with each other digitally. There are all these rules for communicating with each other digitally, by the way. Uh and but the the actual interaction oftentimes when you hear people actually meet up to go on dates, it's always super awkward because no one's really communicating with each other face to face.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think younger people today, I mean, when I was in school, we didn't have iPhones, we didn't, we didn't text, we didn't have any of that. And so if you said something mean, you learned it was mean because you saw the expression on the on the other person's face.

SPEAKER_00

True, yes. Or or you you know what's funny and what's you learn how to have you had a rumor started about you, or you started a rumor about someone, you could see in real time the effects of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yeah, all the things. Good, good, easy.

SPEAKER_00

Good and bad.

SPEAKER_02

All the things you could see the effects in real time. And so that's where you developed your personality and you and you learned who you are, and you learned like I actually did not like the look I saw on their face. And I clearly I did not convey that information in a way in the best way because it it hurt their feelings or whatever. And so that's where you learned all these interpersonal skills, but now kids break up with each other on over text and on social media, and so there's no consequences, and that's why I think there's so much trolling on the internet because there are no consequences, you don't see the effect that it has, and so then you and so then you really I think don't realize how what kind of person you're being.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, all going back to being able to not weaponize your attention, but utilize your attention in a way that's beneficial for you and the people around you, being present for others, yeah. Yeah, what where where do you see things going if we don't get a grip grip on this? Because it's I don't know how it gets better from here because we're only becoming more digitized. We're we're living in a digitized world and we are, but no end in sight.

SPEAKER_02

There is no end in sight, but with many things that um that have sort of changed the way that we engage with the world, the pendulum swings in one direction, and then you start to see it swing back a little bit in terms of a a bit of a backlash against um against too much of whatever it is. And so there is a whole um sort of place on the internet that some people are referring to as the a tech lash, where people are talking about this kind of impact and how are we going to connect with people, and there's organizations that are um holding events and uh offering advice and connecting with other people and talking about this and making intentional decisions. I just heard, I haven't done any research, but I just heard somebody told me that there's this whole movement of young people that are going back to flip phones.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I know they use the Polaroids. Yeah, that's another example because part of it is they find us millennials as cringe, as they love to say. And they said that, you know, we take a photo, we post it immediately. So they say that that's cringe, and only idiots do that. You're not cool. So they take photos and they post them later. Yeah, they don't post in the moment. That's kind of faux pas.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So there's, I think there's lots of little pockets of these kinds of um uh of fighting back or you know, kind of trying to take back control. And there's movements of parents that are agreeing because it's really hard to tell your kids like you can't have a phone if all your friends have a phone.

SPEAKER_00

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

And so now parents are getting together, you know, your friends' kids, your your kids' friends, you get with all their parents and and they're agreeing. Okay, nobody in this group is gonna have a phone. We're all gonna agree. Nobody gets a phone until, you know, seventh grade or ninth grade or whatever they decide. And so there's all these little pockets of those kinds of um resistance, I guess, yeah, that are popping up. And so I love, I love that, and I'm excited to see where that goes. I think there's gonna be more of that. And even, even I think there's a lot more group texting than there used to be, which to me seems like a backlash against algorithms. Because when when we first got on Facebook or Twitter, it was like I'm following who I'm following, and that's all I see. Yes. Well, now you can't do that on social media anymore. You can't, and so the only way I can make sure that only people I want to see this get it is if I create a group text.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I think once we realized that we were the product and that they want us to see ads all day, right? That changed the experience because it wasn't just, you know, me and you, me and my friend, me and my mom, you know, having a conversation and sharing photos. It was the ad that was trying to steal our attraction, our our attention.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there was a uh there was a court case against Meta, and in the transcript of the case, a little statistic came out that said, because we have these stories that say we're on Facebook, if that's your generation or whatever, right? But people say, Oh, I'm on Facebook because that's the only way I can connect with my friends and you know, see what my kids are doing and their kids and all that kind of stuff. And so we tell that's the story we tell ourselves. But this stat that dropped in this transcript was that the the percentage of time that we spend reading posts from our friends, right? People that we actually chose to connect with, 17% of the time we're on Facebook. We're we're reading posts from friends, and the rest of the time it's ads and sponsored posts.

SPEAKER_00

And things we're gonna have strong opinions toward. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, rage baiting and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Total. Oh man, this has really been good. I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. There's so many things I would love to go in depth with you about just video gaming and children's attention and like raising your children because I mean when you said that, I was like, oh, that sounds like a great idea. Maybe I'll try that because they're starting to get to that point where we're not your, you know, we're not your the biggest distraction for the kids. They're starting to gain other distractions, and it's amazing to watch to see them kind of be their own innocent little human and then starting to be commoditized, starting to see their attention span commoditized. And and and I mean, even in the children's books, I mean they're ads basically, it's like very subtle ads, but they're there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I tell parents is that the research indicates that when kids are young, at least certainly under 10, the number one thing they want is the attention of their parents. And so if you remember that that is the thing that they want the most, because when they don't get the attention of their parents, then they look for a second place. And if they don't get your attention because you're on your phone, for example, then they're gonna want their phone, or they're gonna want something, some other device, because well, you're on your thing, so I'm gonna be on my thing. So the more you can, and I know kids are very demanding and they want your attention 100% of the time, but but if you can, I but I think that's a useful thing to remember is that the more time you can spend with your kids, and not everybody has that luxury, I totally get it, but the more time you can spend with your kids doing engaging in things that require you to be disconnected, board games, outside activities, those kinds of things, the more they will, the less they'll succumb, at least at a young age, to the digital distractions.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely taking that to heart. That is, you know, because I I start to think about the concept of abandonment, right? I mean, you could abandon your child just from being on your phone too much.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And key points in their life, you know. That's yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

Really, really hit home for me.

SPEAKER_02

Good. Yeah, I mean, I think if a kid had a choice to play a video game or to go for a bike ride with their parent or to play a board game with their parent, they're gonna choose their parent, at least up to a certain age.

SPEAKER_00

Up to a certain age, yeah. I I I can see that because they love you so much up until a certain age.

unknown

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Omar, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02

Morathomas.com. And actually, if you go to morathomas.com forward slash productivity hyphen assessment, there's um a really kind of in-depth assessment that you can take. And when you get your results, it provides a whole bunch of resources for you to explore the places that you are the weakest. So that's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would love to take that assessment. I think I will.

SPEAKER_02

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00

If I don't get distracted. Well, thank you so much. Okay, I appreciate you, and uh, we'll have to have you again.

SPEAKER_02

I'd love it. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Tech. Ação